Great article! I’ve also never heard of narrative distance before, but you’re right that it’s such a helpful way to think about things. I had to stop reading for a couple moments though to laugh at your description of the second person 😂 I don’t disagree at all, but I’ll admit I am one of those sadistic folks who kind of loves it. I don’t really use it at all, but I will give anything a shot if it uses the second person. I wrote a short story in 2nd many years ago that forever endeared me to it. Did I only do that because my middle school English teacher told me not to? Yes. Yes, I did.
Hey Addam, looks like I never replied here at first but I wanted to say this comment made me laugh 🤣 there are lots of folks who clearly disagree with my strong (and yes, exaggerated) opinion about 2nd person! That’s the fun of writing though: lots of viewpoints, even literally, lots of readers, and lots of ways to challenge ourselves and our ideas. Thanks for stopping by the Forge :)
Very thought-provoking article. I've been pondering it for a couple weeks now actually, specifically why it is that all modern writing advice (or at least all I've run into over the years) is constantly condemning "telling." Which is what a majority of the classics, Tolkien, etc. are written in. Most publishers hate that. Yet, I am never once bothered by classic authors and Tolkien using that far away narrative distance. I don't think many writers even know how to use it well anymore, as they're scrupulous about the Literary Powers that Be who've told them telling is the mortal sin of storytelling. At least that's how it feels to me. I applaud you spelling out this very obvious distinction, and I hope authors start using narrative distance more intentionally again (that said, my fascination with characters' psychology all but requires me to use the RPG camera...)
And am I the only one who skimmed entire interludes in Stormlight Archive because I just wanted to get back to Kaladin?!
Thank you, Khylie. I didn't skim in Stomlight but I certainly did in Wheel of Time and I know many others who did the same, for much same reasons. In any case the "RPG camera" isn't a bad voice or distance; I only make this distinction so that writers can choose it willingly as the best creative choice for their stories instead of choosing it because they haven't thought about any other option. It sounds like you want to explore characters' inner thoughts and psychology—that's a great reason to use it! You can get the most value of out it with a story like that.
>Readers of the Wheel of Time know what I’m talking about: a lot of Wheel of Time chapters follow this exact formula: Re-introduce POV Character A, explaining where they are, what they’re doing, why they’re doing it, what their problems are, then the entire plot of the chapter is them learning a single piece of information about someone or something.
Eh... you're generally right here. Reading through the series, I've burnt out on the rehashing of many descriptions in part. There are other problems, namely the difficulty of the scope being so broad, that switching from one context to the other involves a great many characters to relearn, and try and remember what allegiances they hold, based on what we can figure out from different scenes, different hints. "Did that Aes Sedai lie?" Is a common problem.
I usually just prefer the boys' perspectives, because they're the most fun. What randomness will Mat get up to, monsters will Perrin wrestle, what is Lews Therin whispering into Rand's mind?
The political maneuvering of the girls never had the same appeal. And it takes so LONG.
I really do wonder what the ladies' stories would've been like if it has just been tighter prose (from a farther distance). There are some pretty amazing storylines, engaging characters, and memorable moments.... but like you said those storylines take so LONG.
Too many minor, secondary, characters, a lot of intrigue, ... I consider defacing my paperbooks with a set of colored markers and just indicating each ajah and true allegiance. Maybe pencils, or pens to minimize bleed...
I believe I'm in Towers of Midnight? It was entertaining getting some of the different perspectives on the use of the Chodal Kal superweapons... but it just didn't need to take up half of the book. There's a lot of skimming that happens, instead of really reading, as characters fade in and out.
Yes, very much this. It very much accords with my occasional rants against what I call "first person shooter point of view." Among it's many sins is that when a character narrates, the way they narrate becomes the principle expression of their character, yet this is almost always at odds with the other aspects of their character.
It is also worth pointing out the philosophical roots of this style, which lie in postmodernism and the denial of the possibility of objective knowledge. Thus the only reality is individual experience, and thus only the individual experience of the character is to be portrayed. Establishing narrative distance requires establishing a narrative voice, and the narrator is the voice of objective truth, and thus contradicts the postmodernist doctrine.
I'm sure most writers are not trying to affirm postmodernism when they adopt a first person shooter POV, but that is it's effect.
Agreed on all points, Mark. I hadn't really considered the philosophical underpinnings of the trends in POV shifts over time, but I think you're spot on. As you said, that philosophical bent is not (one would assume) the main purpose of choosing such a narrative voice & distance, but rather it shows up as an effect of the larger cultural milieu.
I'm amazed you managed to make heads or tales of my original comment, considering the number of incorrect words it contained as a result of my typing it on my phone! Hopefully I have corrected them all now!
And I agree. I doubt most people writing this way today have any clue about its roots in postmodernism. These days writing teachers mostly just say that it is essential to engage the reader (which is clearly not true). But then we live in a society that is heavily post modernist, in which people will say things like "living my own truth" which is pure postmodernism, even though they have never heard the term. So the use of that style is, so to speak, congruent with what people have been taught and what they assume.
At first I thought this meant the in game camera, and my next thought was "how am I going to navigate." And then I started to read the article and I agree. It seems like with certain books you're selecting a different character and re-showing certain scenes. Something that could either be done without or possibly lessen the number of characters.
Phenomenal essay! This is such an overlooked tool of modern fantasy that I'd love to see played around with more. I know I fall into the comfortable trap of a close perspective out of habit. Thanks for writing this!
Happy to help, MCN! Remember, it’s not a bad POV (despite my title), it’s just about choosing it deliberately and making the most of your story. Good luck!
This was a great article. I write in limited third and yes, I find myself running into some of these problems, particularly re-setting the scene each time i swap POV. This is a big issues when you're trying to write epic fantasy with several POVs and trying to keep the word count down.
One way around this is to 'head-hop', but that in itself can be jarring and I would say is best reserved for when the pace picks up.
I've also seen (very skilled) writers create distance in limited third by restricting how much they give the reader through POV. Having the character close down/become detached from what they are doing.
I see less omniscient stuff these days, because 'show don't tell' seems to be the number one piece of feedback given to writers, and that's certainly easier in a limited POV.
And I know what you mean with Jordan! Although, other things contributed to that, such as over-description and too many plot threads. I've still read the whole series three times though.
Three times through?! Now that takes hutzpah, AJ! I’ve re read a few books of WoR here and there but usually as a palate cleanser between other things. Interesting observation about paring back descriptions even when in limited 3rd POV. Where have you seen that? I’m really curious to read something like that.
I'd refer you to Steven Erikson's Malazan books. If you want a specific example, look for Chapter 7 of The Bonehunters. It's a long chapter that depicts a siege. What we get is multiple POVs of soldiers inside the city when it starts to go wrong, but also cutting back to the commanders outside the city. From inside the city, it's very action-based, do the next thing to survive. From outside, you get the evolving horror of what's happening. It's brilliantly written, but...
It comes with health warnings...
First, I think this tends to be a relative thing, so you'd want to get used to his style first. And that's a labour of love!
Second, Erikson himself has said he does this for the less palatable parts of his work, for everyone's sanity. So, it can get (very) grim.
Oh man, this is great, Eric! What a well written article! Why have I never heard of narrative distance before? I wrote my first novel with the narrator as a minor character in the story, a historian and storyteller recounting the story as it happened when it happened. Thinking about in the light of narrative distance, I gave the narrator to be as close or far away from the problem as possible. As the narrator enters the story I even get the very personal experience of first person past, while still feeling the distance. This may greatly shape my future novels! Thank you! Also, I agree that The Hunger Games, and Wheel of Time are not among my favorite stories. I always felt the writing was off but couldn’t explain why. Now it makes sense. It may not be “off,” it’s just not my favorite. Have you ever read Battle Royale by Koushun Takami? Worth the read.
Thanks, Randal! Welcome to the forge! That sounds like a fascinating narrator. I haven’t read Takami but I’ve had it recommended to me several times and have always been intrigued. Thanks for the recommendation!
Thanks for sharing this Eric. Your explanation using the RPG gaming world really resonated with me and has made me rethink the structure of the last chapter I wrote for my YA fantasy novel.
Hi Sarah! Thanks for reading & sharing the piece. I’m glad the analogy resonated with you and it helping you consider your story from a new angle. Remember: I’m not actually trying to get people to stop using this or that POV; instead I’m just trying to encourage folks to really consider this aspect of narration so they can make their stories and characters shine as brightly as possible. Sounds like you understand that, of course, so I’m just glad that this was helpful :)
This is a great article! I'd never even heard of narrative distance until I read this. It actually makes a lot of sense, lol. :) I personally do not like writing in first person, because then I'm stuck inside one person's head, and if the reader doesn't like that character, they're probably just going to put the book down and walk off. (A writer's greatest horror.) :) But in third person, you can still get inside characters' heads without being stuck. It gives you more room to zoom in and out. I write mostly fantasy, so that requires a lot of stepping back and seeing the big picture of the world the characters are in, but I also don't want readers to be disconnected from characters. And there's nothing I love more than hashing out a character's inner thoughts and motivations.
And btw, that quote from Tolkien—I absolutely love it. :)) He has to be one of my favorite fantasy authors of all time.
Glad you enjoyed it! I totally agree with you on the flexibility of 3rd person.
It's important the remember that you can still zoom and in and out even when locked into a closer distance like 1st person. A first-person narrator can still say "distant" things like "In time, I would regret this decision, but at the time... ". Anyway, 3rd person is so strong precisely because of its flexibility!
I first encountered narrative distance in the 90’s from Orson Scott Card’s Characters and Viewpoint writing guide. And there are a few books, typically romance focused, on writing in deep point of view.
The conclusion I have accepted is there is no perfect choice. No matter what you choose, there will be tradeoffs. I’m working on a revision to my poorest selling novel. The writing wasn’t up to snuff, partly I think because I struggled with distance on that one. The main character is not one you want to get deep with.
I loved the first Hunger Games book. The first person present worked so amazingly well there. Unfortunately that style was not suited to the plot for the third book whatsoever. Katniss spent a lot of time asleep or injured while major world events happened beyond her. Collins is an excellent writer. I’m sure she was aware there was no choice but to do it that way in book three.
Consider discussing the issue of focalization: the dark matter of storytelling. It's the means by and explanation for withholding information from the reader for the purpose of creating suspense and/or mystery. It's the opposite of narrative distance, like flipping the coin.
Great article! I’ve also never heard of narrative distance before, but you’re right that it’s such a helpful way to think about things. I had to stop reading for a couple moments though to laugh at your description of the second person 😂 I don’t disagree at all, but I’ll admit I am one of those sadistic folks who kind of loves it. I don’t really use it at all, but I will give anything a shot if it uses the second person. I wrote a short story in 2nd many years ago that forever endeared me to it. Did I only do that because my middle school English teacher told me not to? Yes. Yes, I did.
Hey Addam, looks like I never replied here at first but I wanted to say this comment made me laugh 🤣 there are lots of folks who clearly disagree with my strong (and yes, exaggerated) opinion about 2nd person! That’s the fun of writing though: lots of viewpoints, even literally, lots of readers, and lots of ways to challenge ourselves and our ideas. Thanks for stopping by the Forge :)
Very thought-provoking article. I've been pondering it for a couple weeks now actually, specifically why it is that all modern writing advice (or at least all I've run into over the years) is constantly condemning "telling." Which is what a majority of the classics, Tolkien, etc. are written in. Most publishers hate that. Yet, I am never once bothered by classic authors and Tolkien using that far away narrative distance. I don't think many writers even know how to use it well anymore, as they're scrupulous about the Literary Powers that Be who've told them telling is the mortal sin of storytelling. At least that's how it feels to me. I applaud you spelling out this very obvious distinction, and I hope authors start using narrative distance more intentionally again (that said, my fascination with characters' psychology all but requires me to use the RPG camera...)
And am I the only one who skimmed entire interludes in Stormlight Archive because I just wanted to get back to Kaladin?!
Thank you, Khylie. I didn't skim in Stomlight but I certainly did in Wheel of Time and I know many others who did the same, for much same reasons. In any case the "RPG camera" isn't a bad voice or distance; I only make this distinction so that writers can choose it willingly as the best creative choice for their stories instead of choosing it because they haven't thought about any other option. It sounds like you want to explore characters' inner thoughts and psychology—that's a great reason to use it! You can get the most value of out it with a story like that.
>Readers of the Wheel of Time know what I’m talking about: a lot of Wheel of Time chapters follow this exact formula: Re-introduce POV Character A, explaining where they are, what they’re doing, why they’re doing it, what their problems are, then the entire plot of the chapter is them learning a single piece of information about someone or something.
Eh... you're generally right here. Reading through the series, I've burnt out on the rehashing of many descriptions in part. There are other problems, namely the difficulty of the scope being so broad, that switching from one context to the other involves a great many characters to relearn, and try and remember what allegiances they hold, based on what we can figure out from different scenes, different hints. "Did that Aes Sedai lie?" Is a common problem.
I usually just prefer the boys' perspectives, because they're the most fun. What randomness will Mat get up to, monsters will Perrin wrestle, what is Lews Therin whispering into Rand's mind?
The political maneuvering of the girls never had the same appeal. And it takes so LONG.
I really do wonder what the ladies' stories would've been like if it has just been tighter prose (from a farther distance). There are some pretty amazing storylines, engaging characters, and memorable moments.... but like you said those storylines take so LONG.
Too many minor, secondary, characters, a lot of intrigue, ... I consider defacing my paperbooks with a set of colored markers and just indicating each ajah and true allegiance. Maybe pencils, or pens to minimize bleed...
I believe I'm in Towers of Midnight? It was entertaining getting some of the different perspectives on the use of the Chodal Kal superweapons... but it just didn't need to take up half of the book. There's a lot of skimming that happens, instead of really reading, as characters fade in and out.
Yes, very much this. It very much accords with my occasional rants against what I call "first person shooter point of view." Among it's many sins is that when a character narrates, the way they narrate becomes the principle expression of their character, yet this is almost always at odds with the other aspects of their character.
It is also worth pointing out the philosophical roots of this style, which lie in postmodernism and the denial of the possibility of objective knowledge. Thus the only reality is individual experience, and thus only the individual experience of the character is to be portrayed. Establishing narrative distance requires establishing a narrative voice, and the narrator is the voice of objective truth, and thus contradicts the postmodernist doctrine.
I'm sure most writers are not trying to affirm postmodernism when they adopt a first person shooter POV, but that is it's effect.
Agreed on all points, Mark. I hadn't really considered the philosophical underpinnings of the trends in POV shifts over time, but I think you're spot on. As you said, that philosophical bent is not (one would assume) the main purpose of choosing such a narrative voice & distance, but rather it shows up as an effect of the larger cultural milieu.
I'm amazed you managed to make heads or tales of my original comment, considering the number of incorrect words it contained as a result of my typing it on my phone! Hopefully I have corrected them all now!
And I agree. I doubt most people writing this way today have any clue about its roots in postmodernism. These days writing teachers mostly just say that it is essential to engage the reader (which is clearly not true). But then we live in a society that is heavily post modernist, in which people will say things like "living my own truth" which is pure postmodernism, even though they have never heard the term. So the use of that style is, so to speak, congruent with what people have been taught and what they assume.
At first I thought this meant the in game camera, and my next thought was "how am I going to navigate." And then I started to read the article and I agree. It seems like with certain books you're selecting a different character and re-showing certain scenes. Something that could either be done without or possibly lessen the number of characters.
Good things to note.
I have no schooling in writing, so this is very helpful and easy to read - thanks.
Phenomenal essay! This is such an overlooked tool of modern fantasy that I'd love to see played around with more. I know I fall into the comfortable trap of a close perspective out of habit. Thanks for writing this!
Happy to help, MCN! Remember, it’s not a bad POV (despite my title), it’s just about choosing it deliberately and making the most of your story. Good luck!
Tolkien's style in that passage is also just so good. It's compelling in its own right.
You caught me. I added that passage largely because I just straight up love it.
This was a great article. I write in limited third and yes, I find myself running into some of these problems, particularly re-setting the scene each time i swap POV. This is a big issues when you're trying to write epic fantasy with several POVs and trying to keep the word count down.
One way around this is to 'head-hop', but that in itself can be jarring and I would say is best reserved for when the pace picks up.
I've also seen (very skilled) writers create distance in limited third by restricting how much they give the reader through POV. Having the character close down/become detached from what they are doing.
I see less omniscient stuff these days, because 'show don't tell' seems to be the number one piece of feedback given to writers, and that's certainly easier in a limited POV.
And I know what you mean with Jordan! Although, other things contributed to that, such as over-description and too many plot threads. I've still read the whole series three times though.
Three times through?! Now that takes hutzpah, AJ! I’ve re read a few books of WoR here and there but usually as a palate cleanser between other things. Interesting observation about paring back descriptions even when in limited 3rd POV. Where have you seen that? I’m really curious to read something like that.
I'd refer you to Steven Erikson's Malazan books. If you want a specific example, look for Chapter 7 of The Bonehunters. It's a long chapter that depicts a siege. What we get is multiple POVs of soldiers inside the city when it starts to go wrong, but also cutting back to the commanders outside the city. From inside the city, it's very action-based, do the next thing to survive. From outside, you get the evolving horror of what's happening. It's brilliantly written, but...
It comes with health warnings...
First, I think this tends to be a relative thing, so you'd want to get used to his style first. And that's a labour of love!
Second, Erikson himself has said he does this for the less palatable parts of his work, for everyone's sanity. So, it can get (very) grim.
Oh man, this is great, Eric! What a well written article! Why have I never heard of narrative distance before? I wrote my first novel with the narrator as a minor character in the story, a historian and storyteller recounting the story as it happened when it happened. Thinking about in the light of narrative distance, I gave the narrator to be as close or far away from the problem as possible. As the narrator enters the story I even get the very personal experience of first person past, while still feeling the distance. This may greatly shape my future novels! Thank you! Also, I agree that The Hunger Games, and Wheel of Time are not among my favorite stories. I always felt the writing was off but couldn’t explain why. Now it makes sense. It may not be “off,” it’s just not my favorite. Have you ever read Battle Royale by Koushun Takami? Worth the read.
Thanks, Randal! Welcome to the forge! That sounds like a fascinating narrator. I haven’t read Takami but I’ve had it recommended to me several times and have always been intrigued. Thanks for the recommendation!
Thanks for sharing this Eric. Your explanation using the RPG gaming world really resonated with me and has made me rethink the structure of the last chapter I wrote for my YA fantasy novel.
Hi Sarah! Thanks for reading & sharing the piece. I’m glad the analogy resonated with you and it helping you consider your story from a new angle. Remember: I’m not actually trying to get people to stop using this or that POV; instead I’m just trying to encourage folks to really consider this aspect of narration so they can make their stories and characters shine as brightly as possible. Sounds like you understand that, of course, so I’m just glad that this was helpful :)
This made so much sense, thank you for sharing it and for the humor!
Happy to help, and all the better if I can make you laugh a bit :)
This is a great article! I'd never even heard of narrative distance until I read this. It actually makes a lot of sense, lol. :) I personally do not like writing in first person, because then I'm stuck inside one person's head, and if the reader doesn't like that character, they're probably just going to put the book down and walk off. (A writer's greatest horror.) :) But in third person, you can still get inside characters' heads without being stuck. It gives you more room to zoom in and out. I write mostly fantasy, so that requires a lot of stepping back and seeing the big picture of the world the characters are in, but I also don't want readers to be disconnected from characters. And there's nothing I love more than hashing out a character's inner thoughts and motivations.
And btw, that quote from Tolkien—I absolutely love it. :)) He has to be one of my favorite fantasy authors of all time.
Glad you enjoyed it! I totally agree with you on the flexibility of 3rd person.
It's important the remember that you can still zoom and in and out even when locked into a closer distance like 1st person. A first-person narrator can still say "distant" things like "In time, I would regret this decision, but at the time... ". Anyway, 3rd person is so strong precisely because of its flexibility!
This is a great article. Kudos.
I first encountered narrative distance in the 90’s from Orson Scott Card’s Characters and Viewpoint writing guide. And there are a few books, typically romance focused, on writing in deep point of view.
The conclusion I have accepted is there is no perfect choice. No matter what you choose, there will be tradeoffs. I’m working on a revision to my poorest selling novel. The writing wasn’t up to snuff, partly I think because I struggled with distance on that one. The main character is not one you want to get deep with.
I loved the first Hunger Games book. The first person present worked so amazingly well there. Unfortunately that style was not suited to the plot for the third book whatsoever. Katniss spent a lot of time asleep or injured while major world events happened beyond her. Collins is an excellent writer. I’m sure she was aware there was no choice but to do it that way in book three.
Consider discussing the issue of focalization: the dark matter of storytelling. It's the means by and explanation for withholding information from the reader for the purpose of creating suspense and/or mystery. It's the opposite of narrative distance, like flipping the coin.